Dogs! Distribution! Oh My!
Utopia's Kyle Greenberg talks illustrating the dogs of Cannes, why he thinks indie budgets need to stay small, and lessons from recent indie success stories.
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During a few recent trips to Cannes Film Festival, Kyle Greenberg, Utopia’s Head of Marketing & Distribution, fell in love — not with the movies, though some were very good, but rather with the dogs. Since 2001, Cannes has held its Palm Dog ceremony, in which a few esteemed international film critics vote on the best dog in attendance. “You just see some of the most outrageous dogs and dog owners around town,” Greenberg says. “And I half joked, ‘It would be cool if I could find a way to get onto the Palm Dog jury.’”
If the idea began as a bit, it soon became more than that. At last year’s festival, two of Greenberg’s friends, Aaron Hillis and Joe Yannick, took photos of some of the most interesting-looking dogs they spotted, and afterwards Greenberg used their photos as references for illustrations, which he then compiled as a zine he’s calling “The Not So Definitive Guide to the Dogs of Cannes.” To commemorate the zine’s launch this past August, he and his Stupid Co label partner Anna Maguire, as well as Deeper Into Movies, held a dog-friendly screening of Karate Dog, at the Rio Cinema, in London. The event was such a hit — with canines and humans alike — that they’ve begun planning more of them (the next will be at New York’s Posteritati, on Nov. 10, movie TBA). And though Greenberg’s zine hasn’t yet gotten him an invite to be on the Palm Dog jury, it’s been a good way to be creative and build community.
Greenberg and I first talked over a year ago, when I was reporting a story about the rising crop of DIY features. As Head of Marketing and Distribution for the company that was making its name off releasing many of these films, Greenberg lent an interesting perspective on the current indie landscape. In the following interview, we pick up where we left off, with Greenberg filling me in on what’s new at Utopia, why so many indies seem to have a theatrical ceiling, and the lessons he’s taking from indie successes like Longlegs and Thelma.
First off, I have to ask: Do you have a favorite dog from a movie?
That's a tough one. Very generic response, but my mom definitely loves to remind me how much I loved Clifford as a child. I have no recollection of ever watching Clifford. But that's definitely one that I seemingly have a strong history with alongside some other classics like Lassie, as I grew up with bearded collies. This year, I loved The Heirloom. One of the ways the Director Ben Petrie described the film in Rotterdam was that it's essentially about two people who get a rescue dog and commiserate over trying to get that dog to take a shit. I also enjoyed Dog on Trial which played in Cannes.
We last talked about a year and a half ago. Since then, what's been happening at Utopia?
The company has been growing really nicely and steadily. I think from the origins of Utopia over five years ago, we were always really intentional that it just needs to be a slow and steady thing where there's not going to be this immediate burst of change. I think for the outsider looking in, it might actually feel like that's happening right now. But it's been coming for the last couple of years. When we launched the company we were doing maybe a film a quarter. And now we're basically doing a film a month. And a lot of these films haven't really strayed from our mission. We've always had the purpose of discovery and supporting debut filmmakers. This year, we've released The Sweet East, which was Sean Price Williams's debut feature, plus debuts such as Femme from Sam H. Freeman and Ng Choon Ping, Omen by Baloji, Ally Pankiw’s I Used to be Funny, Jac Cron’s Chestnut, plus Ethan Berger’s debut The Line coming this October.
But then from the get-go we've also worked with some renowned auteurs. Errol Morris was one of the first filmmakers we worked with and we’ve been lucky enough to also work with the likes of Gaspar Noe, Lena Dunham, the Ross Brothers and more, not to mention Bruce LaBruce coming up early next year with Circle Collective’s release of The Visitor. A lot of folks in the community are already aware that we've also been recently supporting Zoetrope and Lionsgate on Francis Ford Coppola's Megalopolis, which has been an honor and exciting opportunity for our team to play in a bigger sandbox with one of the greatest filmmakers of all time.
And you’ve been bridging into development, too, over the last few years.
Yes. Utopia’s co-founder Robert Schwartzman has led our Utopia Originals division which recently produced The Last Showgirl, which premiered at TIFF. The pre-sales internationally in Cannes were robust and we can’t wait to share news about the US soon enough. The film stars Pam Anderson in an amazing quote unquote “comeback role” that really wowed everybody at TIFF and I’m confident will continue to do so.
I was lucky enough to make it to Venice in September for the world premiere of Pavements, the new documentary directed by Alex Ross Perry which I'm really proud to say we’re on board to support. We worked with Alex on The Sweet East, he was a producer on that. Craig Butta was a producer on both. I worked with Alex years ago before Utopia on his film Her Smell. So as we're growing, it's also about how do we keep fostering community and working with filmmakers we love? That's another exciting aspect of the company's growth. Now we're in this position to support some of these filmmakers and collaborate again and keep building.
It seems like theatrically these movies you’re releasing are topping out at like $500K box office. So I'm curious why that seems to be the ceiling for these types of movies?
We think about it all the time. There's many layers to it. I think one of the most obvious layers is the financial reality of independent film. Being a truly independent company operating without streaming output deals or the way streaming has shifted over the last couple years specifically, with buyers like Showtime disappearing. Showtime essentially is no longer. HBO / Max hasn't been buying. Netflix doesn't really need to buy independent film, because they'll produce whatever they want. So you really have a landscape for indie film where there's maybe two buyers out there domestically, and that's Hulu and Mubi. The Sweet East went to Hulu. We've had a handful of films go to them and I'm really glad about it because it's one of my favorite platforms. And we've had films sell to Netflix in recent years. But the reality is that the numbers independents are getting from streamers is less and less. I don't think this is a secret. If the streaming deals are for less and TVOD, the EST purchase and VOD rental windows, aren't garnering much revenue, then basically one of the only areas of revenue you can count on these days is theatrical. Physical media maybe at a small level.
But your ability to go in and be bullish about spending when you kind of have a ceiling on how much the film can earn for streaming or TVOD prohibits you from overspending sometimes. And for us, we don't want to overspend just to say a movie made a million dollars at the box office. Because the company might've spent two million dollars to do that. And maybe they're only taking thirty or forty five percent of the box office. So there's also this question of what is success in indie film. We're a business and we need to make money but the obsession with box office and numbers has really been a detriment to the growth of independent film and art in the United States over the last ten years. Because you have a film that comes out and it does $250K, for example, but maybe that distributor only spent $35K or $50K on it. Technically that could be seen as a big success. Similarly you could have someone who made one to five million dollars, but they are theoretically spending over a million dollars to get there.
So yes, there are films like Longlegs that are incredibly impressive. That performance was so exciting to see. But if you go to Boxofficemojo and you look at the top domestic performers this year, literally the top twenty-five or thirty films are all massive corporations — Disney, Sony, Paramount, Searchlight, which is also Disney. Every single one of those movies with the exception of Longlegs and Civil War are intellectual property. They're all sequels, prequels, or they're children's films. So when real independent films and companies are being compared to Neon and A24, everything is going to be seen as a failure. Because those companies have corporate backing and they're putting films on literally thousands of screens. Meanwhile, movies like The Sweet East are capping out at like 150 screens. The real independents are going to like 350 screens at a maximum. Hitting $500K theatrically for most of these films is a success. And we need to celebrate that more often rather than be like, "They couldn't make it to a million."
I'm really thinking about this from a producer standpoint: If you're making a movie for a half million dollars, what's a reasonable amount that these movies can make back? Because it seems like there are basically two options in the current landscape for making money: theatrical or selling to a streamer. So, how do you make back your money for one of these movies that's made on an independent budget?
I think filmmakers in the independent sphere really need to be focused on making movies for less than a million dollars, and ideally for less than $500K. I think if you're at the five hundred range, that still gives you potential to recoup and maybe earn. But that's why I've gravitated to some of these exciting low budget films — The Civil Dead, Shiva Baby, World's Fair. In order to make the indie landscape sustainable for everybody, films need to be made for less money. But then that calls into question how people are getting paid. How are you executing at a lower budget level if you have bigger ideas?
It's not a perfect answer, but films need to be made for less. TVOD is super unpredictable. When I started releasing films, you could go into a release and more accurately predict what TVOD would do. And those numbers ten years ago were in the hundreds of thousands. You could occasionally see bigger films hit the million dollar mark on TVOD. In the last five years, I've only seen it a few times. A seven figure level is very rare these days. And if you're trying to hit a six figure level on TVOD that's quite difficult these days, too. Films like Shiva Baby really propelled on TVOD. But there's a lot of factors there. It was an early post-COVID release. You could maybe point to Rachel Sennott's stardom at the time and the multiple niche audiences that propelled that movie.
Take a movie like Rad, which is a 1986 BMX cult classic. It had never been re-released since 1986. And it had developed this insane cult fandom. There are Facebook groups. It is one of the most well known films in the extreme sports world. But the only way you could get it was a bootleg VHS, or there were a couple of really crappy copies on YouTube. But we did a 4K restoration, and that film has been a smash hit theatrically with just one night events (earlier this year on March 21st it was number four overall at the box office). The TVOD and physical media sales are also robust, to put it lightly. Rad really points to an interesting phenomenon, which we saw out of COVID too, which was that a lot of people were reengaging more with old films — but in the case of Rad, the film continues to keep finding and engaging audiences. We’re also working to find ways to create more Rad specific events. This year we launched the inaugural “Rad Day,” which is March 21st, the day of Rad's original release date. And every March 21 going forward we’d love to do something different for Rad. Put it back in theaters, maybe a different physical release, and really tap into that fandom and that audience that wants to engage with it on a big screen and wants these events. But a movie like Rad is such an outlier and it's hard to compare it to any new release.
Have you been able to take any lessons from recent indie success stories like Thelma and Longlegs?
One thing I think about is earned media over paid media. Earned media is why influencers and social followings become so popular. But they're very deceiving. A follower count doesn’t always translate or convert to ticket sales. Those followers might not be following that person because of movies. I think that's what worked so well for Shiva Baby and also the recent release of I Used to Be Funny, which was a really strong 2025 release for us, and an obvious one after having worked with Rachel on Shiva Baby. Rachel’s career is exciting to watch and she’s cultivated a dedicated film-going or film-consuming audience for a lack of better words.
On the flipside, looking at a film like The Sweet East, Sean [Price Williams] has no social media and Nick [Pinkerton] has a small social presence. But alongside their strong reputations in the community, there was the added breadth of awareness coming from the likes of Ayo Edebiri, Jacob Elordi, Simon Rex, and of course the film’s star Talia Ryder, who all have their own audiences.
At a personal level, I'm always really interested to see what someone like Peter Vack and Betsey Brown are doing, because they've really figured out the memeification of film for a lack of better words. And how that grows will be interesting to watch. But I was at a secret screening that Peter hosted in London a few weeks ago. They announced the screening a few days before it happened and it was a full house, not in his core city, and without running any paid advertising or doing much other than cultivating his fan base with a post. I don’t think it’s true that every filmmaker needs to be on social media. But I think we need to be creative in how we create conversation around movies that's not just around running ads that say "Get tickets." I think that's where some folks can get into trouble — overspending and trying to run these traditional ads.
That's what we're spending a lot of time thinking about: Where are we putting our time and resources? Is traditional publicity really doing it anymore? When you're paying a lot of money for traditional publicists, sometimes that's a great thing. Sometimes a film premieres at a festival and you know right away critics are crazy about it. But if you don't go to a festival and get this unanimous critical response, you can see films and companies overspend on publicity hoping it turns around. If we don't get a good Rotten Tomatoes rating, it's going to show up on our TVOD page. And you can keep spending on those things and completely give away your positioning. You work so hard to create the narrative of what the film is beyond the narrative of the film, and then within a few reviews you could just give that away to somebody who doesn't represent your audience.
I personally think less independent films need to rush to TVOD so soon, as well. As soon as you hit TVOD, your film becomes valueless, essentially. And then it starts getting pirated. Werner Herzog said that "piracy is the most successful form of distribution today." And he said that in 2019, and it's only become more true. I think we need to rethink what the digital elements are. You need to go in willing to take risks. There's always been a significant risk element in making and distributing movies. It's just riskier now than ever, unfortunately.
When we last talked, you felt encouraged by how some of these art house movies that you were working on were finding younger audiences. Does that still feel true?
For sure. We saw that very much on The Sweet East. We saw it on Femme. When I go to a theater like The Rio in London, Brain Dead in LA, or Roxy in New York, it's all young audiences. And I think that comes back to how we cultivate these communities and these scenes that are welcoming and don't push people away by being like, "We're better or smarter than you." I think that's where it can go wrong. But the event element is really essential these days. Audiences have this assumption that everything is going to be rushed to digital really soon, because that's become the common principle. So I think when films are taking these tour-like approaches and saying, "Hey actually you're not going to be able to see this on digital next week," it encourages more cinema-going, and people want to get together and find an excuse to meet others and maybe have a drink and meet the filmmakers or see some live music. Obviously, the traditional Q&As are important. But I think they're secondary to being like, “This is a cool way to hang out and get out of the house.”
In London, there's a group called Double Wonderful Events, and they're doing such a stellar job of that. They're not looking to program well known films per se. They're digging in the crates and finding stuff that's maybe even a couple years old. They just premiered Therapy Dogs with us in London and that movie is maybe two years old now. It never premiered in London. But they worked with us to host a prom night. That's how we premiered the film in New York originally. We hosted an anarchy prom because the movie is all about high school. So there was a DJ and drinks and prom king and queen. And it creates this atmosphere that you're not going to get at home. You see all these theaters that have moved into an event-based model. And that's where I think indie film needs to be aligning as well.
Listings
June & Naya Get A Perm, a short coming-of-age film, is casting two leads (both paid): June (24, East Asian, effortlessly cool yet genuine) and Naya (12, Black, optimist in the face of insurmountable insecurity). Shoots in NJ Nov. 8, 9, 10, 15. Apply here.
Nepali Female Filmmakers is holding a free cinematography workshop for Nepali women filmmakers Nov. 10 - 16. Deadline to apply Oct 25. More here.
The great Paul Schrader is apparently in need of an assistant for a “shit and ice cream” kind of role. Email schraderproductions@gmail.com. Good luck!
Stephanie Ibarra recently launched a crowdfunding campaign for her upcoming film Todo el Tiempo en el Mundo, which is shooting in Chile this December! The campaign will be live until October 24th. Help fund the film here and follow the film on IG @todoeltiempofilm.
"OFF-VIFF," a platform for the underground, is coming up in Vancouver on October 7th. It will be celebrating the Circle Collective film King Baby alongside the shorts Hi! You Are Currently Being Recorded and B.I.I.R.D. W.A.T.C.H.E.R.S.
A film called Bet On It is casting two roles: Bella (24, F, a witty, exhausted romantic who dives headfirst into any challenge) and Kai (25, M, a charming yet cynical dater, who uses humor and detachment to makes his frustration with love). Email Yasemin Cobanoglu at yc5084@nyu.edu
No Film School recently published a massive list of fall film grants, labs, and fellowships. Check it out here.
Neighbors, a documentary series, is searching for unique ongoing neighbor/neighborhood disputes and interesting stories. Email HelloNeighborsTV@gmail.com.
If you would like to list in a future issue, either A) post in the Nothing Bogus chat thread, or B) email nothingbogus1@gmail.com with the subject “Listing.” (It’s FREE!) Include your email and all relevant details (price, dates, etc.).
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